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Metaverse Scoring Audit
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I did exactly what you said Weyrleader, and I only did it for the Masso games, if Stardock considered that improper, then I will accept those games to be removed and zeroed, but then why the other games I played that were not Massso, over 200 of them, where also zeroed? If what I was doing was wrong, then fine, removed those games and alert me that what I am doing is improper like happended in the past with Zeromatrix, but deleting all my games, before taking the time to contact me and letting me know that I was doing something wrong, and that I shouldn't do it anymore, that I believe should have been the next step, then and only then if I submitted another game using the tactic I was using and knowing before hand that what I was doing is wrong, then I would agree with Stardock that all my games need to be deleted. But nobody contacted me, nobody said that what I was doing was wrong, the system didn't catch it, so, instead of blatanly accusing someone of cheating they should have alerted me that using this tactic or strategy was wrong and the scores would not be accepted, did they do that? NO, they lashed out, deleted all my games, deleted all my scores and didn't have the decency to contact me, to let me know that I was using a mod that was improper and unacceptable. Sorry if what I was doing was done with good intention and no one caught it and contacted me to let me know that was wrong, I am been honest and telling you what I am doing, Stardock didn't have a clue that this what I was doing, they were accusing me of hacking and changing the ID of the same game to submit the SAME GAME multiple times, sorry but that accusation doesnot have anything to do with the use of the mods. 
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Anyways, you own the place, you make the rules and you have the right to remove whatever you think is improper, so no need to reply, you are entitled of taking any steps and any measures you consider prudent and proper for the well being of the game, the site and the community, my only wish was that somebody would have warned me before it got this far. So goodbye Stardock and goodbye Metaverse, thanks for the memories and for the almost 400 games of fun and entertainment. My best wishes to you all!!!
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| I am been honest and telling you what I am doing, Stardock didn't have a clue that this what I was doing, they were accusing me of hacking and changing the ID of the same game to submit the SAME GAME multiple times, sorry but that accusation doesnot have anything to do with the use of the mods. |
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I would like to see Renegade reinstated and said games removed and a clear statement that such editing is unaccepable.
He has confessed the error of his ways. He has contributed greatly to this comunity in the past and deserves some credit for that.
[Message Edited]
          
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| Sorry to disagree here but I sincerely doubt the intent is to use an editor to change parameters set at the beginning of the game. |
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Terl,
He used mods. MOds are made and used. I have accidently used mods that I had edited in the middle of a game. I my case, the differences were small. Was that game a cheat? Or are we arguing something else here. If you download a new version of GalCiv in the middle of a game and it doesn't screw up the game, is that a cheat? Should those games be tossed out?
| The political party is chosen at the start and cannot be changed in game. The only way to change it is to hack the save by using GalCiv editor. |
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The political party was the same name. He did not hack the GalCiv game. He merely replaced his mod with the game supplied pol part of the same name. This is easily done by saving, exiting, reloading, and restarting the game. A process that does not involve editing any game file. Or for that matter, any mod file other than creating the mod in the first place.
GalCiv write is not a startdock supplied program. It was generated by Hawaii 5/0 (how ever you spell his nickname) and is now maintained by the Diplomats. There is nothing in the writer that you can do to prevent this sort of thing, as it only allows you to create and change mods. Actually, you do not even need GalCiv write to create a mod, it just makes it easier. A simple text editory can create your mod.
| To further bolster this, check past posts from months ago in which a certain player whined about the "masoverse" and stated in these forums that he could not play at that level and then--suddenly--he does |
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Are you implying that this is a cheat, to learn how to play? Or are you saying that the only way he could sudenly play is to cheat? In the current forums there are a lot of remarks about how people could not conqure Masso until the read a strategy. Sudennly they were winning massos. Is this a cheat?
Well, whether Renegade cheated is up to everyone to decide. I have my opinion, and others have theres. That is what make the world go round. My concern is that Stardock accused them of doing something in a way the did not do. Now we are arguing wither the newly revealed stratgy is a cheat. It may be, it may not be. But it is NOT what Stardock said they were doing.
  
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#79
by Veteran Gerakken - 6/24/2004 6:09:23 PM
Uh huh. There is somethings I got to say about this. Renegade says he started a game with a powerful political party mod and then changed it around toward the end to avoid an anomolous flag. Beyond cheese. Way beyond. What you start the game with in regards to picks or mods stays in the entire game. If the mod would lead to a bad score, do not use it! Saying "the Masoverse made me do it" is no more a valid defense than saying "the Devil made me do it" in my opinion. OK, I got that off my chest.
Should Stardock have not resorted to shooting first and asking questions later? No, not in this case. This was a clear edit and was done to avoid tripping a flag the player knew would go off if the mod had been left in its original configuration throughout the game. Even if the user did not know how to use a conventional editor, using the Galciv writer to reroute the mod a bit before the end of the game is done for the same reason: to get away with something that would otherwise been caught.
Now is the time to clean this mess up. Renegade told exactly what he done, and had hundreds of games to his credit. He obviously did not use the illegal tactic in all of them. It would be nice if the earlier games that were not altered in this manner were restored, but not, of course, the later altered ones.
I would still like to see Renegade stick around. He made an error in judgement. Sure, there is going to be some heat from it, but I am not going to hold this against him if he does not repeat the same mistake again. As for his current mood, yes, he probably does feel a bit stonewalled. Brad picked a bad time to take a break if he told his people to do this audit and the affected players used private means to contact him while he was unavaible. Perhaps the audit would have best been done beforehand, if possible?
Well, I don't have all the facts still, so my take on the situation is tainted. But I do not like this situation as it is, so thus I proposed my version of a compromise. Problem is that it may be too far gone to fix the Renegade vs. Stardock situation so easily.
   
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#80
by Senator CariElf - 6/24/2004 6:15:34 PM
| I am been honest and telling you what I am doing, Stardock didn't have a clue that this what I was doing, they were accusing me of hacking and changing the ID of the same game to submit the SAME GAME multiple times, sorry but that accusation doesnot have anything to do with the use of the mods. |
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I appreciate your honesty, and I will be sorry to see you go.
| My concern is that Stardock accused them of doing something in a way the did not do. Now we are arguing wither the newly revealed stratgy is a cheat. It may be, it may not be. But it is NOT what Stardock said they were doing. |
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The reason that Renegade's scores were deleted was because it appeared from the data that we had that he had doctored a save game to submit it multiple times. The fact that he edited the mod is a totally different issue.
I would like to see Renegade reinstated and said games removed and a clear statement that such editing is unaccepable.
He has confessed the error of his ways. He has contributed greatly to this comunity in the past and deserves some credit for that. |
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I agree that Renegade has contributed to the community. That's why he was made a Veteran.
I don't have the access or the authority to restore any of Renegade's saved games. If he would like to appeal for his scores to be restored, he will have to wait until Brad gets back from his vacation, and if he has any of those save games, he had better hang on to them.
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| If he would like to appeal for his scores to be restored, he will have to wait until Brad gets back from his vacation, and if he has any of those save games, he had better hang on to them. |
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Brad (I think he was the one who said it, I would have to go back and look) said that the games were not zeroed, just removed from the Metaverse.
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Weyr,
I accept your point of view but cannot agree with it. One of the reasons a game may get an anomalous score is to prevent overly powerful mods giving the player a huge advantage over the AI. If you then deliberately start changing the rules just before the end of the game to avoid the anomaly flag that is cheating.
If you can't beat the AI at maso without cheese or cheats why not play at a lower level until you are good enough to win?
| Now is the time to clean this mess up. Renegade told exactly what he done, and had hundreds of games to his credit. He obviously did not use the illegal tactic in all of them. It would be nice if the earlier games that were not altered in this manner were restored, but not, of course, the later altered ones. |
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Absolutley. Whatever our differences I have never known renegade to lie. He has admitted his error and I think it would be good for the Galciv community if his earlier games were reinstated. In part to show a willingness from Stardock to respond to dialogue on the matter and secondly to keep renegade around.
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| One of the reasons a game may get an anomalous score is to prevent overly powerful mods giving the player a huge advantage over the AI. |
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One of the most frequent mods is for an increased in PQ. This can, but not necessarily, result in an annomolous score. There is a parameter in the Status page called Planet Quality. When it goes over 40 you get an anomolous score. So it is ok up till then, but no over. In other words, it is not a cheat until you go over 40 in PQ in the status page. One way to avoid an anomoous score is to monitor this parameter. If you accidently go over, i.e. cheat, reload the previous save and don't do what you just did to make you go over. In a way, this is similar in concept, but not in impact, with what Renegade did.
In any case, Stardock accused him of modifying the ID. But, in fact, they also admited they did not know what he did or how he did it. There actions on such a flimsy basis is what I object to. It is arbitary and capricious. They can indeed do what they want to do, but they should not expect everyone to agree with them.
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#84
by Senator CariElf - 6/24/2004 7:19:47 PM
| In any case, Stardock accused him of modifying the ID. But, in fact, they also admited they did not know what he did or how he did it. There actions on such a flimsy basis is what I object to. It is arbitary and capricious. They can indeed do what they want to do, but they should not expect everyone to agree with them. |
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Well if you're going to make claims like that you ought to be able to show the quote. If you're referring to anything I said, you mistook me. When Renegade posted about what he did, I had not known that he was editing his political party to keep the anomalous flag from being set, which is a separate issue. I was not part of the auditing process so I did not personally go through the data. However, no one at Stardock is intent on persecuting our customers. The data that the auditors found made it appear that Renegade had edited one game multiple times so that he could submit it as separate games, and they would not have done it on a whim.
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| The data that the auditors found made it appear that Renegade had edited one game multiple times so that he could submit it as separate games, and they would not have done it on a whim. |
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Could what he admitted doing produce the results the auditors saw is the million dollar question. 
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| Well if you're going to make claims like that you ought to be able to show the quote. |
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CariElf. I apologize if I make an unwarented claim. Here is the quote from Frogboy:
by Avatar Frogboy - 6/18/2004 4:49:06 PM
As some people may have noticed, Stardock conducted a Metaverse scoring audit. The intention is to try to ensure the general integrity of the Metaverse.
According to the Metaverse auditors, there were a number of top ranked players who had figured out a way to submit multiple entries for what was essentially the same game. We don't know precisely how they did this (hex editor, decompiler, etc.) but the only things that would appear different in the game were the gameID and sometimes the first researched tech. Otherwise, it was still the same map, the same enemies, the same everything.
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| The political party was the same name. He did not hack the GalCiv game. He merely replaced his mod with the game supplied pol part of the same name |
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Yes but the problem is, he used an external program to mod the party he used playing the game which gave him powerful bonuses that are not within the approved mod parameters of Stardock. And the fact he had to save, use that same external program to "mod the party back" so to speak at the end shows he knew he was doing something to get by the sensors. That's not cheese. Cheese is taking advantage of the ai WITHIN game parameters.
That having been said, I don't think Renegade knowingly set out to do something he knew before hand was cheating in the case of the mod play, remod back to speck. He made a mistake. One that he now should know is cheating. One that should have been caught but wasn't. It's not all that clear that Galciv Writer is a non Stardock program. Stardock should immediately issue a statement that sort of thing isn't allowed amd take greater steps to catch it. It sounds fairly easy so you can bet he isn't the only one doing it.
The million dollar question here is whether that editing activity is messing up the submitted data so badly that all the games look the same. But if Renegade were to play and submit two games without using his technique, then submit two using that technique (to be deleted of course), it would generate the data to answer that question fairly conclusively.
| The data that the auditors found made it appear that Renegade had edited one game multiple times so that he could submit it as separate games, and they would not have done it on a whim. |
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Hence I strongly and emphatically disagree with the arbitrary and capricious assertion someone made above. Stardock may indeed be wrong, but they're not just doing it capriciously.
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While I appreciate the mods that Renegade has put forward on the Metaverse and the fact he was a fellow pirate I do believe what he did went beyond cheese.
To intentionally alter a game so a score (which otherwise would be anomolous)could be submitted is definitely cheating (intentionally or not).
As to Stardock actions I believe they have acted fairly in this regard. Obviously they saw something they thought was suss and acted. It does not seem arbitory or caprious to me.
Stardock would be crazy to do it on a whim especially given the profiles of the players involved.
They do have room to move in regards to reinstating scores prior to the incident. Everyone will have an varying opinion on this but it is for Stardock to decide.
 
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I think the last turn in the discussion has revealed a new issue that appears to be at the heart and heat of the discussion.
There appears to be the following "types" of games that can be played: private and public (metaverse).
In private play, you can do what you want however you want. How you play privately will depend upon your own private ethics.
In public play, Stardock has in fact created a differt game then simple Galciv would imply. They have created a game called GalCiv Metaverse (call it Meta for short), a superset of the basic computer game. The rules for the public game are different than the rules for the private game. In the Meta the rules are not as cleanly stated as one might like, but are based not on your own ethics, but on Startdock's ethics - i.e., what they believe is leagle or not.
In the current discussion, we are not no longer talking about mods to a game. All mods have been deemed leagel by Startock. But people who use mods should beware that they may trip any one of apparently several trip points. Planet Quality is a well known one. In the Status Page of the game is a metric called Planet Quality. When that metric passes 40, the score becomes anonamous. Many players monitor that metric to avoid generating events or social constructs that will raise this value over 40. If they do, they reload and not do that particular event. So, one leagle way to do what Renegade was doing has been blessed by Stardock.
But Renegade's problem I posit is not in the mod. The mod did what it did and the results were what they are. The new mod that Renegade developed was a modification to the process of playing the game. This has never been done before. The normal game process is as follows: Load the game, select your polical party, select your enemies, select your map and related features, play the game and submit your score.
The mod Renegade made to the process is as follows: load the game, select your policatl party (in R's case, it was a mod of a standard polical party of the same name), select the map and related features, play the game until one move before the end, save the game, exit the game, rename the currently used moded political party, load the game, reload the saved game file (which now selects the default polical party of the same name as was previously used, but now not modded), play the last to turns (nameily, ally with the last AI and win) submit score.
All indiviual steps in the game process are legal. The combination of them apparently has resulted in a way (as noted above with the PQ metric) to step back from an anomalous score.
In retrospect, for the public game, Meta, the change in game playing process needs some form of ruling that this is illegal or a better method inside the game to not allow anonomous scores, once reached, to not be changed. Of course, with this harsher rule, it would be nice to know before hand when this was going to take place.
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By the way, an easy fix to the Renegade problem would be to prohibit any mods with the same name as a default politcal party. Game over, QED!
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I seem to recall that the registration of a player in the metaverse stated that if Stardock caught you cheating that you would be deleted from the metaverse..
(I'm not going to try to get that page up again as I don't want to wreck my account)
If someone newer can remember the wording I think that it'll help..
What I hate is that when ppl get caught cheating is that they always invariabley try to get out of it anyway they can.. and start saying "why me" ..
Renegade: I have in the passed had high respects for you as a fellow player.. and am very disapointed in you that you tried to get around things (and you knew it was wrong.. don't try and get out of it.. ) by changing things in mid game... this is just as bad as hex editing.. with even worse results as you don't know what is actually being altered.. and if by some strange turn of events that it altered the data to make it look like you were resubmitting an old game then you deserve it and so do others who try..
Sure we all use mods and new party's and thats acceptable (so long as you don't go overboard and triffer the games anomilous score flag.. ) but then to change it back at the end.. this is admitting that you did something and were trying to get away with it.. so cop the punishment.. If you can't do the time don't do the crime..
and if as I remember the punishment for cheating is full removal.. then don't kick up a fuss because stardock inforced the rules..
if however it doesn't say that ALL games will be removed or similar then I agree Stardock shouldn't have taken them all..
However from memory it did state removal from the metaverse.. (it was about a year agao when i joined .. so i could be wrong)
and this isn't mearly pointed ar renegade.. its to ALL players.. if you try to cheat then be prepaired to take the punishment.. after all I know we are all only human and can easily circum to the temptations .. but it still doesn't make it right...
As Cari has stated.. wait till brad gets back.. send him an email explaining what you did.. how you did it.. and then the matter will lay in his hands.. it won't make you friends to berate them in here .. in fact it'll do the opposite
They want to keep the Galciv Community happy... but just how far do you want them to turn a blind eye ...
Sorr5y for being so long winded.. i'm sure as well that once again i've made more enemys well at lost some ppl that i called friends  here for speaking whats on my mind
 
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for example.. what ewver you used may have overwritten the wrong area of data that was going to be submitted.. thus maybe making it look like the same game resubmitted ... which could be the case... ??? think about it... you don't know exactly what was overwritten do you.. especially if you don't even know what a hex editor is... eg: dfid you study or compare the data being transmitted ?? of course not..
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J.T., | If someone newer can remember the wording I think that it'll help.. |
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Important Notice: The Metaverse submits more than just your score. It also uploads game data that can be used to calculate ones score. If we believe users are modifying the game in such a way designed to artificially inflate scores, we will remove that player from the Metaverse. There will be no warnings.
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Glad to here that my memory hasn't failed me yet
thanks for looking it up for me
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Weyrleader, it is obvious Renegade used this tactic to avoid getting a zero score. To try and justify it as a legal tactic is nonsense.
Once you start the game there is no way you should be able to alter the data for the game play, in this case the political party. It seems that the game itself recognised something was up (hence the anomolous score)which lead Stardock to suspect something.
JT, I agree with your sentiments...
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