Galactic Civilizations: Clarification on battles between stacks?

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Do you still think GalCiv 1 is fun even with GalCiv II out?

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1- Yes

2- No

Clarification on battles between stacks?

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by Citizen Drizzt_DoUrden - 6/6/2003 3:47:20 PM

It seems like there are rounds of battle where the 'toughest' ships from each stack attack each other. But which one is the 'toughest?' Is it by Hit Points, Defense Rating, Attack Rating? Does it depend upon who attacked who? I've heard that if starbases are involved they get attacked last. What about Colony ships, Transports, Sensor Drones, etc.? Any clarification is appreciated.

#1 by Citizen WasabeXX - 6/6/2003 6:18:26 PM

I know there have been lots of different opionions on this, but from what I've observed. . .

The ship with the higest attack value fights against the ship from the enemy that also has the highest attack value.

So of course since starbases have 0 attack, they are always attacked last. Also, since Anti-Matter Missiles have the highest attack, they are always targetted first when in a stack.

#2 by Citizen Sigma 7 - 6/6/2003 8:06:07 PM

The ship with the higest attack value fights against the ship from the enemy that also has the highest attack value.

Actually, it's the combination of Attack + Defence that's used when combat is calculated. I have seen cases where an attacking ship nailed one of my starbases and left the other vessels guarding it intact.

This implementation seems a bit faulty, since it causes a battleaxe to be destroyed much more quickly than if the ships were rotated. As a result, you have to do manual rotation to protect your systems for a longer period, but that slows down the repair rate.

There are ways to fix this without throwing the game-balance into the wind...

#3 by Veteran fsk5809 - 6/7/2003 11:10:29 AM

I heard a rumor that there's a fleet defense bonus in the current version. Has anybody figured out how big the bonus is?

#4 by Citizen Bearcave - 6/8/2003 10:56:08 PM

Can you make a group of ships move at the rate of the slowest (e.g. a transport)? If so, please explain what to do.

#5 by Ambassador Ray the Wanderer - 6/8/2003 11:06:41 PM

"I heard a rumor that there's a fleet defense bonus in the current version. Has anybody figured out how big the bonus is?"

It's a bug rather than a working as designed bonus. We have had many reports of fleets of small fighters/transports successfully defending against massive capital ships.

"Can you make a group of ships move at the rate of the slowest (e.g. a transport)? If so, please explain what to do."

Using the fleet function would achieve that. Click on the bunch of ships and push "F".

#6 by Citizen Bearcave - 6/9/2003 12:28:06 PM

Thank you Ray.
Is this actually documented anywhere? A faq of little-known tricks might be a great idea.

#7 by Citizen MadMaz - 6/9/2003 2:06:45 PM

I don't think that would be considered a little-known trick, unless you're talking about the key mapping. It's just the basic group-into-a-fleet function that's commonly used. Hitting F is equivalent to the green and yellow little buttons that show up when you select multiple ships.

btw, there is an unofficial manual that includes a good deal of additional information from forum posts, but I don't think it's been updated since late April. It can be found at

http://www.brimstonedragons.net/azakain/

#8 by Diplomat Ralegh - 6/9/2003 11:54:00 PM

The consensus of the thread is right - and it is documented in ver 0.99.010 of the manual (released a couple of weeks ago and now on the downloads page!)

The manual also documents the fleet bonus (defensive only) although it doesn't give any details.

I am certainly seeing a significant reduction in the damage my guys take while in a fleet. Unintuitively, perhaps, having the other ships as transports, freighters, or starfighters seems just as effective as having dreadnaughts... While I haven't tried to quantify the bonus, it does seem to get greater the more ships are in the stack (although I would expect that to taper off after some point.)

Real example: Stack of eight combat transports and two starfighters (hey, they were in the area) are attacked by a dreadnaught. Dreadnaught dies killing only one CT (and damaging a second). I would expect it to kill about 7 combat transports based on the output of the Galactic Battle Simulator (go to the Metaverse web page and select the "Simulator" link on the left hand side).

What I don't know yet is whether you get the defensive bonus while simply stacked in the same square, of whether you have to be in a fleet.

#9 by Ambassador Ray the Wanderer - 6/10/2003 12:06:58 AM

"The manual also documents the fleet bonus (defensive only) although it doesn't give any details."

Woah, documented in the manual? I thought it is a bug (really looks like one to me) rather than a proper feature. Let me check out the manual on this.

#10 by Ambassador Ray the Wanderer - 6/10/2003 12:16:14 AM

"Tip: While combat is resolved one-on-one, if the defender is in a fleet, they do get some bonuses,
reflecting the support the other ships can provide."

What??? This is a working as designed feature?!? This changes everything (bonks head on table).

RayChua goes to create large numbers of starfighters.

#11 by Ambassador Ray the Wanderer - 6/10/2003 12:21:50 AM

Hey, but doesn't the fleet defense bonus introduce some inconsistency to the oft-complained fact that there is no bonus for fleet attack?

#12 by Citizen J4 - 6/10/2003 4:37:49 AM

Hey Raychua,

I think I reported this a while back, I had a stack of Corvettes and was able to defend against dreadnaughts, as long as they were in a fleet. This was reported as a bug, but it would be interesting if there are merits when you fleet ships. I always found with 2-4 Dreads together, I tend to loose less ships when on the offensive.

#13 by Ambassador Ray the Wanderer - 6/10/2003 4:56:44 AM

Yeah, I do remember J4. drank01, yourself and a couple of others including myself have seen clear evidence of this fleet defense bonus. The issue here is that this bonus does seem to be a huge one rather than a minor bonus that can be resonably expected from supporting defenders.

A bunch of starfighters even when providing covering phaser fire should not be able to take down an Avatar while only losing a few of their own. That is why I was actually the one who stood out to say that this is probably a bug rather than a feature.

Frogboy has stated very explicitly in another thread that there is no fleet attack bonus and it is unlikely that there will ever be such a bonus due its impact on game balance. That is why I'm rather surprised to see a fleet defense bonus.

This huge fleet defense bonus would just result in players grouping large numbers of small cheap ships and bait for attacks.

#14 by Citizen LDiCesare - 6/10/2003 6:22:20 AM

This should give way to a "starfighter challenge": Play with only starfighters. Since the ai will nicely go its way moving its ships out of orbit to attack your starfighter stack, starfighters can take planets which should be defended by battleships, as they just have to clean out the colony ships which clutter the orbit so the transports (not combat transports) can land. The time and money you'll gain not researching capital ship techs is very welcome. Of course, you have to keep your fleet out of orbit, unless you can have them stacked on a planet, which I didn't see yet.

Looks like a bug, or an unwanted side effect.
[Message Edited]

#15 by Citizen J4 - 6/10/2003 6:55:42 AM

Good point RayChua,
Stacks would be really disadvantageous...although it would be nice to have a limited number of defense, like up to five ships can stack, with a minor bonus not considered a bug.
You found that in the manual too...that' odd.

#16 by Citizen Elad- - 6/12/2003 8:38:34 AM

Perhaps the civ3 style of build army could be implimented?

#17 by Diplomat Ralegh - 6/12/2003 9:29:38 PM

I agree that we should continue play testing to see if the stack bonus needs tweaking.

FWIW, I have been doing a lot of this in the last week, and some the cheesy tactics don't work so well in 1.05+ - for example, some defending ships know they are there to defend the planet, and stay in orbit... Still, as someone taking +ATT bonuses, starfighters are pretty cost effective for defender-clearing IMHO (well, so far).

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