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Terraformers Party
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I'm happily surprised that this got Stardock Certification: 
"The Mutarra Wave is a powerful (PQ +15) terraforming device. Early tests were disastrous, but the device is now only mildly unstable (Mil & Soc Prod -5, Pop Growth -5). The Wave competes with starships for critical alloys (Hull -60). The developers will share their technology in return for government control."
(Observant readers will note the Stat Trek inspiration.)
This is actually the first draft. I don't know if the site has yet to process the proposed update, or if it likes the original better. The update changes: Defense & HP -40. My thinking at the time was that I should dock both defense and HP. Is the hull penalty enough, or should both defense and hull suffer? And is -40 enough? Up it to -50?
The penalties associated with the "instability" counteract 5 of the 15 points of all the PQ bonuses except for economy, morale, and whether the planet is small enough (13 or smaller) to require a monthly maintenance cost. Is this too much? I've considered making the "instability" purely agricultural - get rid of the production penalties and double the growth penalty to -10. The change would actually increase the sum worth of the bonuses by .25 points. Any thoughts?
One more change under consideration is increasing the PQ bonus to +16. That is just barely enough to change a size-13 planet to a size-15, and not enough to change a size-12 to a size-14. (You'd have to spend three of your Racial Points on PQ +5 fopr that - and not have enough to buy +2 speed. Decisions, decisions.) What do y'all think? Is +16 asking for too much?
           
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| I'm happily surprised that this got Stardock Certification: |
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Well, as long as you haven't any other empire wide PQ enhancing mod, there shouldn't be any problem with anomalous score. Don't forget than in standard, there is a wonder that give empire PQ +10.
Have you seen if the AI take your party?
| One more change under consideration is increasing the PQ bonus to +16. That is just barely enough to change a size-13 planet to a size-15, and not enough to change a size-12 to a size-14. (You'd have to spend three of your Racial Points on PQ +5 fopr that - and not have enough to buy +2 speed. Decisions, decisions.) |
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Then you should keep PQ+15. This way, if people want to colonize immediately PQ 13, they need to take the PQ+5 pick.
| The update changes: Defense & HP -40. My thinking at the time was that I should dock both defense and HP. Is the hull penalty enough, or should both defense and hull suffer? And is -40 enough? Up it to -50? |
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What is exactly the point of these penalties?
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#2
by Citizen Chippoka - 1/28/2005 5:07:40 PM
Why the point of the penalties? I'm not too sure, but it may be that SpacePundit wishes there to be some tit-for-tat when trying decide weather or not to build a particular improvement; and perhaps thinks there should be a "down-side" in certain circumstances (I agree). Just a guess. It certainly isn't unsual. Many things in SciFi often have thier various pros and cons. I personally have felt many of the improvements in GC/AP were way too lop-sided to only providing user benefit without any consideration of possible negative aspects per a given SciFi scenario.
Anyway, it sounds like you have a good mod here, SpacePundit - It should be no surprise that I altered most of the terrain improvement mods in my own games to include certain minor negative effects which the player must weight against the benefits; or, later dismantle the improvement when a new refined improvement of similar ability is invented - in some cases, I added a maintenace cost for upkeep of planetary terraforming equipment likely involved in holding the improved planetary conditions at better threshholds (as would be normally be expected).
Phoenix, hope you don't mind my asking, but have you or do watch any of the common SciFi (StarGate, FarScape, Star Trek - any of the various series - Andromeda, etc)?
An aside, what is all the concern about planet PQ improvements anyway? Why does it matter or not if a planet achieves some really high PQ value due to unique technological conditions - wouldn't such likely be naturul expectation with extremely advance races/cultures as they near technological-spiritual-physical ascension (or whatnot - in a SciFi context)?
I came across a StarDock mod that gives a 40% PQ bonus late in the game. How is that not appropriate (if I hear your concerns correctly)?
I should also point out that I suspect that the super majority of players of GC/AP probably don't bother with game submissions, I certainly don't; and, subsequently, I (and I suspect most others) am more interested in acquiring mods and in making mods which lead to a more satisfying interesting single player game out-side of submission concerns related to game scores.
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#3
by Citizen Chippoka - 1/28/2005 5:18:07 PM
SpacePundit, your thread title made me think of my own sort of "Political Party" I created some time ago (and never messed with submitting). It was my attempt to indirectly create the Pslions race of Master Of Orion II fame. Too bad that GC/AP doesn't truely allow for creating race pros and cons seperate of the political party scheme (which is the only means to act for such).
FYI and for general interest (the bad thing is that the set-up screen doesn't have a scroll bar to permit the reader to read the entire list):
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITICALPARTY Enviromentalists
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
ID 8
DisplayName "Enviromentalists"
Description "The Enviromentalists care only about planet quality (+50), breeding like rabbits (+200), and living in peace (+20 moral). They are very poor traders (-90), have poor influence (-33), and have poor military production abilties (-50). Loyalty is weak (-25)."
Model "Misc01"
OpposingParty "Industrialist"
BonusType 18
BonusValue 50
BonusType 5
BonusValue 200
BonusType 4
BonusValue 20
BonusType 10
BonusValue -90
BonusType 9
BonusValue -33
BonusType 19
BonusValue -1
BonusType 7
BonusValue -50
BonusType 27
BonusValue -25
ColorRed 84
ColorGreen 242
ColorBlue 81
ENDPOLITICALPARTY
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| Description "The Enviromentalists care only about planet quality (+50), |
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So you won't have the certified approval. Empire wide PQ bonus greater than 40 give an anomalous score for the metaverse
| breeding like rabbits (+200), |
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Nice for low populated planets. But don't forget that there is a cap of 200 Millions for pop grotwh per planet
| They are very poor traders (-90), |
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This is very dangerous since lots of income can came through trade (I manage to get more than half of my income orignated from trad on gigantic galaxy)
| have poor influence (-33), and have poor military production abilties (-50). Loyalty is weak (-25)." |
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Penalty of military production means that the AI will beat you for the colony rush.
I wonder if the AI will take this party at high level.
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| Phoenix, hope you don't mind my asking, but have you or do watch any of the common SciFi (StarGate, FarScape, Star Trek - any of the various series - Andromeda, etc)? |
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why this question?
| An aside, what is all the concern about planet PQ improvements anyway? |
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Just the anomalous score linked with empire wide PQ bonus greater than 40. Sure, it isnt important for those who aren't submitting to the metaverse.
I haven't any problem with high PQ for individual planet.
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| Why the point of the penalties? |
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Have you looked at Research.inc? The penalties (negative bonus) are here just to prevent AI to take the party too frequently
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#7
by Citizen Chippoka - 1/29/2005 10:51:06 PM
Thanks for your comments.
As to why I asked the question about SciFi (which you didn't answer)? Because you seem a bit disconnected for standard expectations for given circumstances within a space SciFi context (such as this 4X space game). Perhaps it was just my imagination (no offense - I was just trying to understand where you are coming from and your experience among the classics of 4X).
See Master of Orion II for a concise examples of the uses of penalaties and the wonderful contrast they offer against benefits - ulitimately such increase the strategy aspects of the game (see my earlier exlination).
Regarding the trade penality of the Enviromentalist Party: that was to off-set thier otherwise huge advantages. I have played tested it several times - and it worked out nicely a few times.
The other tech party you mentioned, Research, Inc - Yes, it is in my Parties list, but I had already added another Party of similar ability (before I came across it).
[Message Edited]
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| As to why I asked the question about SciFi (which you didn't answer)? Because you seem a bit disconnected for standard expectations for given circumstances within a space SciFi context (such as this 4X space game). Perhaps it was just my imagination (no offense - I was just trying to understand where you are coming from and your experience among the classics of 4X). |
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Could maybe normal since I lived in France and don't particularly watch TV. BTW, speaking of standard expectation about Sci Fi is a bit odd  : each Sci Fi has its own universe. Some are linked (like Star Trek), but what is true for one universe may not for another. But for TV series, you need to have always a downside about everything, in order to have subject for episodes.
As for experience about classic 4X games, I have played: Civ, Civ2, Civ3, Moo, Moo2, MoM
| See Master of Orion II for a concise examples of the uses of penalaties and the wonderful contrast they offer against benefits |
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Yes, picking some penalties allow you to pick more benefits. But it isn't needed in Galciv. you may want a political party to:
- play the game in a certain way
- get bonus for you and not for the AI
- give a certain mood the game (looks like your way of playing)
| Regarding the trade penality of the Enviromentalist Party: that was to off-set thier otherwise huge advantages. I have played tested it several times - and it worked out nicely a few times |
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What is your main setting for game (Galaxy size, difficulty level)? Because Trade hasn't the same impact on galaxy setting. And when you are behind the AI, you may want everything that can help you.
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What is exactly the point of these penalties?/TD>
I used Research Inc as a rule of thumb for the maximum value for a party's sum worth of bonuses (as defined in GalCiv Writer docs). Research Inc's value is 21.74. A party that increases PQ by 15 and has no other modifiers has a value of 28. The -5 penalties actually have very little effect on the score; the real difference comes from the military penalties.
Dissuading the AI from choosing that party is certainly a benefit, but even if they do pick it, they will still have fewer planets than me. They always ignore anything smaller than size 15, and I'll be aiming for those size-13's even with only +15 PQ (I've never hesitated to colonize size-14s even without PQ bonuses). And once I can build the Halut Pack's Enhanced Environmental Control or the Omega Pack's Nano Enviromenatal Manipulator, whichever comes first (probably the former) I can take some of those strategically located size-12's under consideration.
I'm going to upload a slight rewrite to the mod and see how the Powers That Be like it. This official description has the stats changes:
"The Mutarra Wave is a powerful (PQ +15) terraforming device. Early tests were disastrous, but the device is now mostly stable, with some deleterious side effects to agriculture (Pop Growth -10). The Wave competes with starships for critical alloys (Defense & HP -45). The developers will share their technology in return for government control."
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#10
by Citizen Chippoka - 1/30/2005 9:10:23 AM
| Auratus Said: As to why I asked the question about SciFi (which you didn't answer)? Because you seem a bit disconnected for standard expectations for given circumstances within a space SciFi context (such as this 4X space game). Perhaps it was just my imagination (no offense - I was just trying to understand where you are coming from and your experience among the classics of 4X). |
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| Phoenix Said: Could maybe normal since I lived in France and don't particularly watch TV. BTW, speaking of standard expectation about Sci Fi is a bit odd : each Sci Fi has its own universe. |
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Well, you my have a cultural difference with people here in the West, but that isn't a issue for me Don't forget there is "Cable" and "Dishes." Not only that, there are loads of books with a space SciFi context. If you aren't interested, you really aught to rent some VHHs/DVDs and/or visit a library - only because you would be letting yourself in for a real rewarding treat.
Have you seen Battlefield Earth, for example? "You don't know what you are missing," as the old saying goes... and it would provide a greater "Point of reference" for discussing space SciFi concepts which typically make it into games - and, I should point out, seldom are "original" concepts. Most things a person can come across have already been written about and/or have TV shows or movies created dealing with such - there seldom is anything truely "new" now days in SciFi or in PC space games, including GC.
True, there is a sort of uniqueness to each SciFi universe, but it is generally an expectation that such universes make sense, be logical - and as I said - it helps to have a common frame of reference to such subjects in order to understand that such ideas typically aren't new. And regardless of that, most SciFi products were researched well by the developers (be it games, books, or visual media); such product generally have commonly known SciFi threads running through them (hyperspace, wormhole travel, supersized capital ships, terraforming, warp drive, transporters, lazer weapon, anti-matter drives, nano-technology, etc). For example, it is not unusual for a Movie and TV Show Producers to hire consultants who are experts in common SciFi expectations (and in modern sciences as well).
| Phoenix Said: But for TV series, you need to have always a downside about everything, in order to have subject for episodes... |
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Producers don't put downsides into things just and only for ratings. They also do it because it is mostly an expectation of intelligent viewers that such be logical and make sense - viewers which typical already have broad exposure to normal concepts introduced in SciFi history - most of life is a contrast of pros and cons - SciFi is no different - be it the Matrix, Master Of Orion, Deep Space 9, or a good SciFi book like Battlefield Earth.
| Phoenix Said: As for experience about classic 4X games, I have played: Civ, Civ2, Civ3, Moo, Moo2, MoM. |
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I need to give that Master Of Magic a try some time! I missed it somewhere along the time line of my life.
Myself, I've read countless books, even stuff not so "SciFi" (introduction to Quantum Pysics; the Cosmic Code); and have played a host of SciFi Space 4X: Reach For The Stars, Master Of Orion (all editions), Pax Imperia (actually it's pretty good game next to Orion), Stars (a Windows sort of space game - not too fond of it), Civilizations (and other games like it: Lords Of Conquest, Tropico, 1602, Earth 2150, Settlers III/IV, but such are really not the same vain of 4X as most come to understand is mostly related to space SciFi games), Spaceward Ho (used to be one of my favorites), Reach For The Stars (one of the first space 4X that "began it all" and set a standard for others to measure up against - still one of the best 4X games from the era of the Commodore 64 and Atari 800XL), Imerium Galactica, Free Space, etc - the list goes on - needless to say, I try every game that comes out, unless I don't hear of it or it is reviewed to be truely a poor game design.
My standard of measure for user friendly game control interaction and functionality is Master Of Orion II; for graphics, it is Pax Imperia; for story telling, it is Star Control, for overall game concept: Galactic Civilizations - that's a high compliment coming from me.
| Auratus Said: See Master of Orion II for a concise examples of the uses of penalaties and the wonderful contrast they offer against benefits... |
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| Phoenix Said: Yes, picking some penalties allow you to pick more benefits. But it isn't needed in Galciv. |
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I isn't a matter of need, Phoenix. It is a matter of making it logical. Most things have down-sides, consequences, which aren't necessarily favorable against the benefits they provide - it's a matter of social, culture, and political priority in real life - stop using paper bags for putting groceries into at the store and switch to using plastic bags? What to you get? Non-bio-degradable material which eventually goes to landfills blowing around by the wind - but you get a easy way to carrying what you buy at the store. That's the evolution in bags, for example, here in the US which I don't entirely agree with.
And in Master Of Orion, the weight of pros and cons doesn't just end in the pre-game race configuration - it is a theme which runs through the entire game design concept. It should. Why? Because it is logical to do so in a Space 4X game. It is real life. It was extremely sucessfull in Master Of Orion I and II --- that game was the most all time sucessfull Space 4X game to ever come out. When designing a Space 4X game, it is prudent to learn "the whys" and "wherefores" of earlier successful designs and use them instead of tying to re-invent the wheel that somebody else has already discovered - some say that's business 101 developement. Pretty logical too.
GC/AP lacks direct race attribute allocation by the player (both pro and con) - this is a mistake and should be corrected. Using the Political Party and "picks" for attempting to define race characteristics is not an effective way to accomplish the task, nor is it logical, given a Political Party is about politics, corruption among the ultra social elites, lobbies, freedom verses repression in governance --- not race characteristics. However, it is often used that why due to a lack of a direct race configuration protocall in the game sub-routine.
My solution for GC would be to allow the GC race picks to permit the user to pick some limited negative settings - if for no other reason that some races will be poor in some abilties and extremely good in others.
| Phoenix Said: ...you may want a political party to play the game in a certain way >- get bonus for you and not for the AI... |
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Not the "Party," instead: the "Race" - and that per a given strategy desire by any player (which will vary from person to person). I would hope the AI choose the parties randomly - if not, then that is a huge, huge game design flaw.
The real crux of the matter or the real concern a modder has when creating a mod is more about straight-up realistic design which is logical and/or meets common SciFi expectations; one only hopes the game design doesn't hinder such.
| Phoenix Said: - give a certain mood the game (looks like your way of playing) |
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It is more about what any player, not just me, may want to try per a given desired "mood." I have tried in my own GC/AP to set all the Political Parties so that each is roughly as good as the next if the user understands a certain strategy will be required as well as choosing a compatable victory condition; e.g., want to be a Peace Nic (Party Mod), then choose alliance victory.
| Phoenix Said: Regarding the trade penality of the what is your main setting for game (Galaxy size, difficulty level)? Because Trade hasn't the same impact on galaxy setting. And when you are behind the AI, you may want everything that can help you. |
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I normally play on Huge, some times Gigantic - some time on a custum map of the same size. Race dificulty is near max, but I like leave one of two "Bright" races for permitting "easy" dealing. Depends on my mood: fun or challenge. Normally it is "Crippling."
So, if a player chooses Enviromentalist, he or she had better find a way to get money other than from trade - that's the point of the limit I gave to it. It can be done. And it also means the player may need to make sure he or she stays "friendly" with everyone and persue an Alliance Victory (or whatnot) when picking the Enviromentalist Political Party - or make sure the race picks include high economy picks (perhaps). The point of the Party Mods I make is to force the player to "think" strategicly with common sense.
Sorry for the long rant - but it was nice chatting here with you and getting to know you a tiny bit.
[Message Edited]
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#11
by Citizen Chippoka - 1/30/2005 9:23:58 AM
Here are my tech technology sorts of "Parties." I had to modify the Research, Inc party due to the need to play balance it with my other mods; and to include my own estimation of what is appropriate given my own expectations.
These are for general interest only:
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITICALPARTY ResearchInc
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ID 10
Name "ResearchInc"
DisplayName "Research Incorporated"
Description "These are the peaceful (moral +20) diplomats (+30) who don't believe in war (hit, defense and weopons all -50). Instead they believe the answer is to be friends with the whole galaxy. They try to find new ways to solve problems (research +50). They try to show the galaxy that they are great builders (social and economics +40). They lucky (+75)."
Model "Inc"
OpposingParty "Enviromentalists"
BonusType 11 //Diplo
BonusValue 30
BonusType 4 //Moral
BonusValue 20
BonusType 12 //Hit Points
BonusValue -50
BonusType 1 //Weapons
BonusValue -50
BonusType 2 //Defense
BonusValue -50
BonusType 23 //Luck
BonusValue 75
BonusType 8 //Research
BonusValue 50
BonusType 6 //Social_Pro
BonusValue 40
BonusType 0 //Economics
BonusValue 40
PenaltyType 5 //Pop_Growth
PenaltyValue -80
ColorRed 255
ColorGreen 128
ColorBlue 0
ENDPOLITICALPARTY
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLITICALPARTY Technologists
//------------------------------------------------------------------------
ID 4
DisplayName "Technologists"
Description "The Technologists are those from your race which have strong telepathic abilties. They naturally have dominated the politics of the United Nations for the past several decades. Technologists give an impressive 70% boost to research and +90 to sensor range with thier minds. However, all the government R&D means weak economics (-25) and lower social morale (-25)."
Model "Technologists"
OpposingParty "Mercantile"
BonusType 8
BonusValue 70
BonusType 14
BonusValue 90
BonusType 0
BonusValue -25
BonusType 4
BonusValue -25
ColorRed 220
ColorGreen 224
ColorBlue 114
ENDPOLITICALPARTY
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| However, all the government R&D means weak economics (-25) and lower social morale (-25)." |
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Theses negative bonus can be pretty annoying at the beginning of the game: tax rate need to be lowered for 100% morale and it gives less money (for the same rate)
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#13
by Citizen Chippoka - 1/31/2005 5:16:48 PM
Those can be off-set by picks (if the player truely wishes to avoid the penalties) or mine the appropriate economic and morale resource (if handy - depends on luck, granted). Pending a decent map layout, I still do very well with the Technologist Party (in the form I now have it in). I do a lot of tech trading for money - and give a few for "friendships" to bide my time at the beginning.
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| I do a lot of tech trading for money |
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Be warned that this works only at low levels. At higher levels, you will get only few BC for techs.
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#15
by Citizen Chippoka - 2/1/2005 5:12:23 PM
I have observed that 
I have also observed that minor AIs will pay nicely for some techs, even late in the game. But one of the best ploys I have stumbled across is to simply attack certain of the late arriving AI minors, sue for peace 1 or 2 turns later, then get a huge per-turn tribute for 20 or 40 turns. One such tribute was 3000 for 30 turns. I was amazed.
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I finally got around to updating the mod. Was going to do it yesterday, but the weather was messing with my dialup service.
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#17
by Citizen Chippoka - 2/3/2005 6:04:19 AM
Do you have a link?
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Do you mean a link to the mod? Just look in the Library section of this site.
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#19
by Citizen Chippoka - 2/7/2005 5:54:10 AM
Got it. I still need to install it. Perhaps tonight. Been busy making new ship graphics on the weekends
 Link
Use any of them with your mods if you wish.
[Message Edited]
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