Galactic Civilizations: Xenoreligious Thought Mod: input requested!

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Do you still think GalCiv 1 is fun even with GalCiv II out?

758 votes

1- Yes

2- No

Xenoreligious Thought Mod: input requested!

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by Citizen Malleus - 4/11/2003 12:48:51 AM

Here I present a new tech tree branch: Religion. These five technologies will increase your diplomacy or influence (depending on alignment) and will open up two improvements that I will post in a little while. I am interested in honest feedback, asking about balance issues and the look and feel of the mod. Do not spare my feelings, as I can anticipate some responses already (or you can simply ignore the thread and REALLY hurt my feelings

#1 by Citizen Malleus - 4/11/2003 1:07:17 AM

#2 by Citizen Viandox - 4/11/2003 8:17:03 AM

Good idea: Religion is strangely missing from the game.
Some suggestions: May be you can start the branch earlier to let people role playing crusaders from the start.
I understand why you chose to associate Euchumenic behavior with Good and Crusade to Evil (there is no other way to create mutually exclusive branches) but seeing how the "Saintly" Altarians usually behave, you can't help thinking about them as bloody crusaders.
May you could also create a new type of ship: the "Suicide Ship", cheap to build, no maintenance, low attack than explode after usage (like Anti-matter Missiles) to simulate kamikaze (for the "evil" side only of course)
I also think that the Cathedral should a standard improvement (that can be built on all planets) with local moral bonuses.
You can rename the civilization improvement to something more grandiose...

Just my 2 cents

Herve

#3 by Citizen Malleus - 4/11/2003 11:57:41 AM

"I also think that the Cathedral should a standard improvement (that can be built on all planets) with local moral bonuses."

Hmm, if I did that, I would have to do the same for the Inquisition.

Also, I am fast realizing that the research costs for the higher techs are very low. I am trying to think of a better number for it.

Here's some ideas for improvements then:

Pan-Species Cathedral/Ubiquorate Temple
- small morale bonus

Wonder: Unity Cathedral/Office of the Ubiquorate
- as above.

As for ships, I am thinking of adding a "Crusader" class of vessel. Unsure of it's details as I am still playing with the .ship files.

M

#4 by Citizen Ace_Dragon - 4/11/2003 1:05:16 PM

Jihad! Death to the Unbelievers!

Everyone fears the Inquisition!

#5 by Citizen Neale Davidson - 4/11/2003 1:56:49 PM

*cries*

Not only did I do this mod already (and it's been available for over a week on the usenet groups), but I called it the exact same thing...

#6 by Citizen Malleus - 4/11/2003 4:27:09 PM

Noo! Neale! I'm sorry...I had no idea, really. Let's compare notes then, I would like you to post yours here.

I haven't submitted this to the library, so I will be happy to defer to you in this mod idea.

Now I feel bad.

M
(Did you really name it the same thing?)

#7 by Citizen Neale Davidson - 4/11/2003 5:14:48 PM

#8 by Citizen Neale Davidson - 4/11/2003 5:16:02 PM

Okay, mine's posted. Don't worry, just found it funny that 'XenoReligion' got used twice.

You're seems to be a lot more powerful, but doesn't give the starbase module bonus.

#9 by Citizen Malleus - 4/11/2003 6:14:17 PM

It's very interesting. I'm looking it over tonight in a game.

M

#10 by Citizen Verenti - 4/16/2003 1:32:23 PM

Suicide Kamikazes should be for everyone.

Suicide Bombers aren't EVIL they simply are devout
Kamikaze Pilots aren't EVIL they simply are Patriotic

I'm not praising Terrorists, but to say anyone who would sacrifice themselves to further a cause is evil is totally unfair. You condemn heroes and Rebels, who would sacrifice themselves for good causes.

In conclusion Suicide troops are only as evil as the cause they repersent.

#11 by Citizen Neale Davidson - 4/16/2003 6:44:05 PM

Suicide bombing is evil... telling your people to fruitlessly commit suicide to prove your own greatness is decidedly evil.

#12 by Citizen Verenti - 4/16/2003 6:55:23 PM

No one says your TELLING them to, Maybe just suggesting. Maybe they're doing it out of their own initiative.

Remember in Independence Day (the movie) The guy flew his plane into the ship sacrificing, commiting suicide, to save Humanity. Was he evil?
Before you say "He didn't have a bomb" He had jet fuel and one jammed missile.

#13 by Diplomat HawaiiFive-O - 4/16/2003 7:03:26 PM

Spontaneous act of self-sacrifice in order to save one's compatriots = GOOD

State organized programs designed to promote and nurture a culture of suicide bombers = EVIL

The first is the individual's choice. The few (or the one in this case) acts in the best interest of the many. This is selflessness, a hallmark of Good.

The second is the choice of the few in power, so desperate to stay in power that they no longer act in the best interests of the many. They act in the best interests of the few (themselves). The mark of EVIL is selfishness.

Just my opinion, of course.

#14 by Citizen Verenti - 4/16/2003 8:28:27 PM

Who says those with bombs on their persons aren't acting selflessly? If their cause is a governing body of their people that is so desperate to allow its citizens to sacrifice themselves to save it's own hide. Must mean that somone is exploiting that gov't some how.. maybe economically, maybe militarily, maybe through propaganda?

Maybe the gov't has a program where they will supply any willing citizen with the arms they need to carry out the operation.

Allow gov'ts to topple or Toppling Gov'ts where ever they are is not a healthy choice for world/regional/galactic stability and in the long run does more harm then good. So if stability is good then somone who'se willing to preserve that stability and their gov't is acting selflessly for the good of the many. When it comes down to it Heroism and Suicide are much the same, except one we applaud, and the other we only sometimes applaud.

#15 by Diplomat HawaiiFive-O - 4/16/2003 8:42:48 PM

If you are queueing up "Suicide Bomber" units, it's a state sponsored program, pure and simple. This is Evil. You can make as many as you want, ergo you are ordering/coercing/brainwashing people into dying for you. Some might do it out of the desire to serve the greater good, but the mere fact that you can create as little or as many as you want points out that the selfish Few hold power over the hapless Many.

If you are gifted random "Suicide Bomber" units as your defenses crumble, I'm willing to concede the moral grey area and call the use of such units pragmatic, neither Good nor Evil. Heck, since pragmatism is a hallmark of Neutrality, I'd declare it a Neutral stance.

#16 by Citizen Verenti - 4/16/2003 9:02:04 PM

What about Conscripts? You basically telling them to die. Ordering them to go up against "Experinced" forces. (Because you're desperate enough to use citizens in battle, ala the French Revolution) The difference is Conscript soldiers (much like Joe Infantry from GalCiv)is not much difference (Like when I throw billions upon billions of soldiers at my enemy to take his strongholds) just the equipment (if we're going by your scenario of evil because the gov't sponsered suidcide troops)and the fact death isn't guarenteed in a conscription.. if it was Levee on Masse wouldn't be to effective would it?

#17 by Citizen Verenti - 4/16/2003 9:04:12 PM

Just so you know, I bear no grudge (Even though I didn't cede some of my grounds

) against you for this spirited resistance, I'm just trying to get the "fairest" grounds for everything

#18 by Diplomat HawaiiFive-O - 4/16/2003 9:25:35 PM

Seems to me that you have ceded some grounds, by changing the subject to "Conscripts", an entirely different animal.

I bear no grudge either, and am willing to keep an open mind about things.

There is inherent Evil in conscription as well, as you are depriving the individual of choice for the ends of the State. You are far better off with an all volunteer force. But it's less Evil than suicide bombers, as conscripts aren't guaranteed to die.

I disagree with your contention that "you are basically telling them to die". It's all in how they are used. If you institute the draft, but provide adequate training, equipment, and leadership, this is not so Evil. To use them in the way you describe, as "cannon fodder", would be Evil.

Recruiting soldiers in game is abstracted, so I contend you can not enter the process as evidence of moral equivalency in-game (which is what I believe you are trying to do by tying Suicide Bombers to Conscription). The entire process is illogical, from loading anywhere from 1 to 5 Billion soldiers onto *one* transport, shipping them off to fight *the entire tax paying population of the invaded system*, then granting the land rights to the surviving soldiers on your side. I'm sorry, but to draw any conclusions about Good or Evil out of such a warped starting premise is a waste of time. It's a game, this is an abstraction, there is no Good or Evil in this ground combat system.

Queueing up Suicide Bomber units remains Evil in my book. Can we agree on this point?

Your serve.

#19 by Citizen Verenti - 4/16/2003 9:52:23 PM

Heh. Nice shooting. But I looked at the conscripting the entire tax paying population into the army as .. well, I don't like using the words good and evil because too often whats "good" is what's convient.

But yes, For most cases training queues of Suiciders is "Evil" in the GalCiv sense of Evil (Again, I don't like using evil, another reason for that "Evil" tends to also mean "Not Nice") but it could also be the previous stated neutral for maybe you have millions of citizens willing to die but not enough ships full of explosives.

On the Switch to Conscripts: It was a general tactic to impose your standard of suicide bombers to other "sacrificers" as was my whole argument thus far.

Good show, I won't respond til tommorrow, but rather good show.

#20 by Diplomat HawaiiFive-O - 4/16/2003 10:05:25 PM

Thanks for the discussion.

You are right, that the definitions of Good and Evil in GalCiv are very pat and simplistic.

But even this simplified ethos system is an interesting game mechanic not usually seen in TBS games. RPGs yes, but not TBS.

I've got to get back to work on my Writer, and I owe you an install package too, don't I?

#21 by Citizen Viandox - 4/17/2003 6:26:09 AM

Waoh !
It seems that my original comment had started a huge philosophical debat ! (good...)
Anyway, I've put "evil" in quotes due to my prior statement
"I understand why you chose to associate Euchumenic behavior with Good and Crusade to Evil (there is no other way to create mutually exclusive branches) but seeing how the "Saintly" Altarians usually behave, you can't help thinking about them as bloody crusaders."

Malleus clearly wanted to have mutually exclusive path and currently, I don't see any thing except the Morale to achieve that. In fact, this trick is not even perfect as you can acquire technologies from trade or you can change your morale through events.
Ideally we would have a way to create "points of no return" (Exlude_Tech_id keyword) but the cost to implement is probably too high.

Herve

#22 by Citizen Malleus - 4/18/2003 4:35:09 PM

Viandox,

I agree with you on the "points of no-return issue." The mod as I designed it (the one without the input of the _original_ creator of the idea, Neale Davidson) is not working as intended. The Really Good(tm) Torians have the Ubiquorate up (hehe) and the Really Neutral(tm) Arceans built the cathedral. Now, the only way they could do this is to have traded for the techs needed. I am uncertain how to proceed so the AIs won't do this, but I feel perhaps lengthening the tech tree into a longer branch will allow the player to rush there if desired, but won't allow the AI to pick it up along with everything else quite so easily.

M

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