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My Critique of Stardock's Policy on "Modding."
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by Citizen Malleus - 5/2/2003 9:54:20 AM
First off, let me state that modding includes altering fundamentals of the game. Currently no modders are writing about being interested in modifying the executables, so we have been sharply limited in our possibilities right there.
Currently, mods that make it into the Library are mostly items you will find in an expansion pack. To be blunt, it's obvious that we are taking care of a good chunk of development for them.
The Library is an exclusive club where only items that can potentially be added to the expansion pack are included. Anything else is consigned to a limbo or rejected.
Right now, I see two major problems:
1) The "built-in" ability to modify the game is limited. We have very few options to explore in our creativity, the best example of this is UPIssues, which have virtually no options to create new files. The basic mechanics of the game prevent a lot of ideas from being realized, as the only options open to us is adding or subtracting modifiers.
2) The lock on creativity that Stardock is exercising with their hosted "Library." Hailed as a place for users to upload their modifications, instead it is a place for folks to add those things to the game that would likely fit the category of "non-core game changing fluff." The best example of this is the score of events that are made available. None of them even come close to bringing the game to a different level, as they all adhere closely to existing event parameters, just shuffled around.
Where's the new anomalies? ships? improvements? technologies?
Where's the Dune mod? Star Wars mod? Babylon 5 mod?
And would Stardock be able (or willing) to host them?
Angelina is ok for what its worth, but I was hoping for a modding community that could change the game experience for the player (which is, fundamentally what modding is all about). Anything like that is rejected here.
While its safe, it also has me bored to tears.
M
 
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In all honesty, I think the reason why they're not putting up alot of *serious* user mods to the library was hinted at in a post by Frogboy where he said that alot of the ctd's and bugs that are being sent to him are the result of people including user made mods.
I think they consider GalCiv to not be stable enough yet to encourage massive modding. There's plenty of bugs and ctds that are happening for real reasons in the normal game, and I think they want to be able to sort out what's really wrong with the game, and what was made wrong by someone else's mistake.
I'm not saying I necessarily like their policies on modding (mostly because they're not clear cut yet), but I do understand that there are legitimate reasons for being very conservative right now.
Mostly, I just would like better guidelines and explanations of what will be allowed into the library, and *when* they feel they can start really adding all this into the library.
 
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Let me add my two cents here.
It's the Metaverse.
In a way, the Metaverse and the Library are the antithesis of each other. One serves as a proxy multiplayer function, the other as a repository of creative ideas. For the Metaverse to work, it is assumed that everyone is playing roughly the same game. For the Library to reach its full potential, that gets thrown out the window.
So, IMHO, even if mods were screened properly and more modding capabilities were added to the base engine, you still would not see real game changing mods posted in the Library because of the Metaverse. As long as it is in the Library it will have a stamp of approval in many player's eyes.
That being said, I wouldn't go so far as Malleus did and level the charge that the Library exists mainly to save Stardock development time on potential expansion pack goodies. Stardock's position is a perfectly reasonable one in light of the Metaverse. I personally am not into the Metaverse, but for many many players its a big factor in their enjoyment of the game. I'd say Metaverse junkies outnumber modders by a fair margin (nothing scientific to back this up, but considering the 3-5 posts on this forum a day versus the main forum, I think I'm on safe ground).
Besides, there'll always be other fansites that host the mods that don't meet Library approval.
Rather than trying to change the Library, I'd be far more interested in Stardock improving some of the modding capabilities, like:
a) Exposing the third type of event, the Story-Line event to modders.
b) Fixing the existing bugs.
c) Adding Conditions, Triggers, and Chains to both UP Issues and Events.
d) Adding new possible effects, like Gain Influence points, Gain Ship, Lose Ship, New Star, etc.
e) Assigning multiple effects per result.
and that's just for starters.
        
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#3
by Citizen pdifolco - 5/2/2003 6:09:54 PM
I think that what is needed FIRST is a clear definition of what can/cannot appear in the Library and why.
IMO the Library should only accept "non fondamental" mods, due to a variety of reasons : consistency of GalCiv concept, Metaverse, copyrights, possible bugs /ctds / incompatibilities, etc..
I've no problem with that as long as it's stated. For all other mods (ST, SW, B5, SE, whatever ) they are to belong to other fan sites, as it's usually the case with "core" mods for games (any, even SE4).
Modders just should know the rules, Stardock should give them...
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I think the reason that's it's so hard for them to allow modding and creativity is beacause of the AI. Right now it's TOP NOTCH but if you add all kinds of "different" creative material, the AI probably won't be able to handle it.
   
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I'll ante .02 cents into the pot.
I agree with HawaiiFive-O's distinction between the Metaverse and the Library.
The Metaverse
I play "standard" games because I joined an empire and feel obliged "To crush others and laugh..." (Okay, it's not an obligation, it's an expression of my inner child.) As well, I like to know how hopelessly outclassed I am in fair comparisons with other players. The way I see it, modifications that aren't part of a bonus pack can't be part of a Metaverse-compliant game because there is no way of measuring their relative effect on the game.
The Modaverse
I play a highly modified version of the game that fills in what _I_ see as gaps in the tech tree, ship list, improvements, etc.
// Slightly OT
// Story events don't really interest me except where they force hard moral choices.
// The event should help me write my story, not write me into its own story.
Malleus,
The Library as a Mod repository was initially proposed by beta testers, not by Stardock. As such, I don't think the idea that Stardock is using Modders to provide free development holds water. I think you're confusing lack of response with lack of interest. The Library created a whole set of problems for Stardock that they couldn't have anticipated. I think the Modding community turned out to be larger and more creative than Stardock expected and I don't think Stardock has the staff to give much attention to the Library. Bug fixes and game play are the natural priorities following a game's release and I don't think we can expect that to change.
I think patience is the best course right now. I don't mean the kind of "step away from the computer and cool off" patience that is required when the f#@
End transmission.
   
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(Well. Apparently the "less than" sign will split your post. No you know... Here's the rest of it.)
!ing AIs cheat, Cheat, CHEAT! (cough) Sorry. If, or when, Stardock appoints a head Librarian and issues Library cards, the Mods will be ready. Until then, keep the Metaverse separate from the Modaverse and keep on Modding.
End transmission.
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I absolutely agree that it would be cool to be able to add and remove techs and anomolies. Perhaps techs and anomolies, if added, would negate adding your score to the metaverse. I would be ok with this! Adding some neat techs would be fun tho, and would prolong the life of this game indefinately, imo.
Anomolies that have NEGATIVE impact would be cool as well. As well as anomolies that once studied, triggured a major event. With perhaps the conclusion of 'you can stop the horrible mutating space plague of Xextor by finding the cure in an anomoly in sectore 'X' / 'Y''.
I think the following should be moddable.. ships, events, colonizing events, anomolies, techs, social projects (add, remove or tweak existing), military projects (same), starbase modules, maybe mess with starting bonuses on game startup.
If this is impossible due to how the game is designed, I guess I could resign myself to enjoy dev added techs, etc.. but it would be REALLY nice to be able to add these oneselves. 
fleabitfox
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Interesting, I think Cpt. Bizarre offers good insight into the situation. That the Library was tacked on at the end of development, and that perhaps some of the ramifications of modding with regards to the Metaverse weren't fully thought through, would certainly explain the behavior we are seeing.
I agree with his assessment. This situation calls for patience. These things have a way of working themselves out.
And there are alternatives to the official Library. There's the CDG forums  Link. And there's Feschuk's site, Link
fleabitfox:
"I think the following should be moddable.. ships, events, colonizing events, anomolies, techs, social projects (add, remove or tweak existing), military projects (same), starbase modules, maybe mess with starting bonuses on game startup."
To my knowledge, everything on your list is to some degree moddable. Have fun. 
Oh, and I'm going to test to see if you can do a negative anomaly right now. That'd be sweet if I can get it to work.
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I managed to bust Feschuk's link. Let me try that again:
Link
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I don't think you can add techs. CariElf said this is not possible. Is there a way to modify existing techs? I would like that! I don't think this is in yet.
fleabitfox
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#11
by Citizen Malleus - 5/3/2003 8:29:01 PM
Not only can you add, subtract and modify techs, but I have built six different tech trees to enhance my own gameplay. This includes a weapons technology tree, a xenoreligion tree, a species philosophy tree, a genetic uplift tech tree, an environmental engineering tree, and a defensive technology tree.
To add to this, I have added a couple starbase modules, a few anomalies, some events, a few trade goods, some early technology wonders, a few other improvements and more.
Of course, the limits of this is you can't change the game mechanics. You can't even really subtract anything. It's all about making numbers bigger.
M
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Shucks, making a negative anomaly doesn't work. So no booby-trapped Precursor installations for me...
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Stardock will likely never be able to host things like Babylon 5 mods or Dune mods due to the licensing fees, so stop going on about that.
Y'know, they don't have to have any of this: the library, the Metaverse, the upcoming free expansion pack, the modability of the game. As a somewhat casual gamer, I am very glad that they don't upload a bunch of mods that wreck my game *cough*NWN*cough* or unbalance it. Besides, offering the type of modding you ask for would likely devalue the, uh, value of the software they have built around Galactic Civilizations, allowing for many to have access to their hard work in making the game, the AI and whatnot for a price far too low (the cost of the game).
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#14
by Citizen Malleus - 5/5/2003 10:53:31 AM
"Stardock will likely never be able to host things like Babylon 5 mods or Dune mods due to the licensing fees, so stop going on about that."
I won't stop. The modding community should never produce just the safe things that are copyright free. I'M not interested in making a Babylon 5 mod, but I would dearly like to see one.
Just because Stardock offers hosting seems to have sharply limited the creativity level of the populace.
M
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HawaiiFive-O, excellent points by you and others. I am into just playing the game for my own enjoyment. I do like the metaverse how it works for Empires where everyone's score adds to the Empire. It is interesting also that the AI learns from the best players strategies and adjusts its game play accordingly. I LOVE creating and using mods in any game. That is what makes the game have legs, replayability is very important to me. Variation in a game using mods are very important as well. I really wish they would come up with a metaverse for modded games. I doubt that would be possible though. Captain Bizarre hits it right on the head. 
  
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#17
by Citizen Malleus - 5/5/2003 4:22:48 PM
Obviously I was not clear, and for that I apologize. I am exhorting the community to flex their wings and move on from the safe and into the true modifications.
My point always has been that it seems we are pandering, if we are or no, to a "correct" form of mod that isn't letting our creativity take wing.
So far all of the arguments I have seen are moot. I even saw a "Ming and Flash Gordon" event. Even the argument that copyrighted material won't get posted is proven untrue.
Should I be selected one of the mods for the Library (an act of faith on the part of the devs to be sure) I would be VERY concerned for the legalities as well as the playability. I certainly carry the best interests of Stardock to heart when it comes to that.
But as a player, I also want to see the community to develop. Please don't take my stance as flaming, but as an exhortation to action.
I would LOVE to run a mod web site. But I also am a full-time teacher who teaches for a second school elsewhere AND has a toddler and a newborn at home. I'm looking to commit to the modding community, but only as a reviewer, a moderator, not a web designer.
M
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I understand where you are coming from. I agree with you now that I do. You make some valid statements and it does seem with this version of GC it is limited for modding purposes in some respects.
You may have noticed my messages regarding our website. We are the only website to my knowledge that is around to fully 100% support mod designers/creators. We provide free forums for mod makers of all games that they want to support. We have the best success with civ3. If you are interested in helping us in the GC forums you are welcome. We intend to support SDC and GC for a long time too come. Companies like this need to be fully supported by the entire gaming community. CDG will not try and take away from the GC website, products or its GC library. However, due to the limitations involved with it, we will have a complete mod file listing as we receive them. We will test all mods to make sure they work as stated in the readme. No Mods will be turned down at all. We will be creating a World Hall Of Fame for high scores playing with mods (Not taking away the metaverse either it is great idea). I am told we should be able to verify players save game files for this purpose.
Anything you would want to be involved in at CDG is welcome. We are here for the entire community with no strings attached. The web site owner is comitted and so is the entire staff. I do not mean to spam the forums with this info, just making sure everyone understands CDG motivations. CDG Galactic Civ forums Link
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